This topic contains 31 replies, has 18 voices, and was last updated by 
AdamStrange
1 year, 3 months ago.
-
Posts
-
Specifically about the name: “Monkey”.
I know this topic has been discussed a lot of times (really, I have been around since ~2012).It just came to my mind again, because in the last few months I talked a lot with other programmers, game designers, artists, web devs, business people, etc. And when I tell them I am making this 2D RPG and what it is about they often get interested, sometimes even excited. But when they ask me what tech I used and I reply with “Monkey-X”, their reaction is always the same. A slight grin (*aww, that’s cute* kind of grin).
I am at the point where I just don’t mention the name anymore. In the beginning I tried explaining that besides the name what an awesome product monkey is. But it’s an uphill “battle” you can’t win. Preconceived notions (monkeys are kind of funny) kick in and logic flies straight out the window. And that makes me kind of sad. Because I know monkey is one of the sanest languages out there, not fighting you at every step of development.
I just think Monkey will never be recognized as a “real” programming language. And the name certainly plays a big part in that.
I have to agree the name screams out “fun little preteen language” not what we have witch is a cross of Blitzmax and c#.
could you not just go with BlitzBasic Next or along them lines? Blitz is well known and respected by a lot of coders I think even BlitzBasic 2 or BlitzBasic Pro use the name every one knows and then reach out to the Max/3D/Monkey community maybe then you could have a centralised user base once again.
Mark you have to many forums and every new one just splits the user base in half every time just seems a waste to not just use Blitzbasic.com.
Just call it mx2 like everyone else does half the time… I don’t think the blitzbasic name carries water the way you guys think it does with anyone not old enough to remember it anymore…
Yup, we have a phrase here “monkey about”, which means not to take seriously. Kinda sums up the problem with the branding.
I presume you have all seen this thread : http://monkey2.monkey-x.com/forums/topic/its-called-monkey-2/
While I agree with a lot of the sentiment surrounding the name Monkey, we also need to bear in mind that one of the most important things about branding is consistency. Mark has stated in the past (as far as I remember, sorry, can’t provide a link) that the name is sticking as it is. Why don’t we respect that decision and offer him our unanimous support, instead of repeatedly trying to persuade him to change it?
Then again, if we are looking for alternatives, I’d vote for ‘Prime 8’ (pun intended).
Okay, I just noticed that Mark himself often calls it mx2 in his blog. He seems to use mx2 and monkey2 interchangeably. So I guess that means we can do the same. I’m going to crawl back under my rock and keep quiet now.
He did? Ok, this all is so twisted, nothing is consistant. I will rest my case then.
I don’t think its just branding alone advertising plays a big part in selling a product. I remember buying blitz plus a long time ago and a book called programming for teens and though i was just learning the title was kind of a put off, so i was thinking ok wheres the programming for adults then. So it did feel directed towards kids to me. I had little time with it beacause i was I was always working, but digging deeper it seemed pretty capable. Im still learning, I never got a chance to play with BP but loved the language compared to everything else i seen. Monkey being the newest evolution, Im sure its capable of way more.
Imo most people need to be convinced why to buy something and honestly when I look around I see alot of atari clones… not a real seller for the new age if you ask me. Maybe something like a community project to show what monkey can do would help, sort of like the guys at blender.org are doing to push blender.
I like the name monkey but I get i can sound meh. Prime 8 sounds pretty bad ass though! But i love monkey language!
just my 2cents.
I really don’t get all the hate directed at the name ‘monkey’ – it has always seemed innocuous enough to me, as abstract/meaningless as C’ or python or lua (moon – cool!) or ruby or spider monkey or boo or whatever, and I find it kind of odd/sad that people appear to be so bent out of shape over this.
Surely, the success or otherwise of monkey2 will depend FAR more on what’s actually created in it than what it’s called? If someone writes the next great mobile app in mx2 (yes, I went there!) will people still refuse to use monkey2 because the name is….what exactly? I don’t get it…
I do vaguely suspect this hate may be coming mostly from people who wanted to see the name ‘blitz’ in there. But if not blitz (and it’s not) then what? Or perhaps it’s a cultural thing? Here in NZ, ‘monkey’ generally means ‘cute and clever’ which I think is kind of apt for what I’m trying to achieve (readable+powerful). But perhaps it has other undertones in other cultures I’m unaware off?
I don’t think the blitzbasic name carries water the way you guys think it does
I most definitely agree, and I think it’s reasonable to say that monkey2 will HAVE to appeal to more than just blitz users if it is to have any real chance of success.
In the UK I would say that the general meaning of the word monkey is “silly”, “stupid”, “simple”, “cheaky”, “naughty”, “fun”, “childish”, “young”, “playful”. As a whole the feel of the title is not overly negative, but from some comments people don’t seem to take the name seriously. I think the difference with monkey compared to say ruby, lua, c, etc is that perhaps they target their audience a bit better. They are all just adjectives in the end, but sometimes certain words are more suited to certain audiences. It’s also harder to compete with search engine results when you pick something like monkey; simply because monkies and programming are two wildly different subjects.
Personally I don’t mind the monkey brand, I think it’s a fun name, but it is definitely interesting seeing some people’s reactions when they ask what it’s coded in.
Out of interest, is the name of version 2 final? (E.g. Will other names be considered for when the language reaches a stable release)
Munci
Make unobtrusive nice code instantly
simply because monkies and programming are two wildly different subjects.
not really..lol
Attachments:
I think the difference with monkey compared to say ruby, lua, c, etc is that perhaps they target their audience a bit better.
Not sure what you mean here by ‘target their audience a little better’…these names are, IMO, just as meaningless as ‘monkey’, and these languages are not well known due to any slick marketing or because they have ‘Zap’ or an ‘X’ in the title, but because they are actually *good* at what they do. I think monkey1 has managed to make a little headway here too – ie: things like new star soccer, the necro dancer game etc, have all helped make monkey1 a more viable tool for game authors.
> Out of interest, is the name of version 2 final?
Never say never, but my current POV is that we’d be nuts to change the name. Whether you like it or loathe it, the name ‘monkey’ does have *some* visibility out there so it makes sense to me to leverage that with monkey2 (it *is* really a sequel after all). The alternative is to rework the site, IDE, docs, etc to…what exactly? Improve the appeal of monkey2 to a small and shrinking blitz user base (I’m assuming the suggested alternative has ‘blitz’ in the name, it always seems to…)? Many of whom wont/don’t like monkey no matter what I do anyway because it’s not blitzmax 2 – which is both entirely reasonable and (partly) why I didn’t want to mislead people in the first place by sticking blitz in the name when I decided to do monkey1.
I really, really want to move forward, not backwards here, ie: to start attracting coders outside the blitz-bubble, who understand the value of some of the new stuff in monkey2. But that wont really happen in earnest until some cool stuff gets written in monkey2 (and any delay here is really down to me…), at which point I have a hard time imagining the name will really matter much at all.
And at the end of the day, no matter how bad you may think ‘monkey’ is, at least it’s not ‘mingw’….
To clarify: I think it was a good decision to split from the blitz name, simply because monkey is really different. Signalizing this by the name helps people understand that better.
In the UK I would say that the general meaning of the word monkey is “silly”, “stupid”, “simple”, “cheaky”, “naughty”, “fun”, “childish”, “young”, “playful”. As a whole the feel of the title is not overly negative, but from some comments people don’t seem to take the name seriously.
This. The name is not really abstract.
Not sure what you mean here by ‘target their audience a little better’…these names are, IMO, just as meaningless as ‘monkey’
Not everyone knows Lua means moon. Ruby is a diamond. Python a powerful snake (the emphasis being on powerful). If it just were called snake it would be in the same category as monkey. The premise being that these names suggest either something abstract or a positive/strong connotation. The connotation of monkey is the things skn3 mentioned (at least here in central Europe).
But you have a point. Once monkey2 starts building successful games, modules, etc. people will see the value. I don’t think that’s what people are arguing. It has more to to with the inital phase/attraction getting.
> This. The name is not really abstract
Well, strictly speaking no it’s not. Either is python, java, lua etc – they are nouns with specific meanings (and apparently cultural connotations). But they are all ‘meaningless’ in the context of ‘programming languages’ which I guess is what I really meant.
I must admit though I did not realize Europeans had such a crappy opinion of monkeys. Here, they’re generally regarded as fun, cute, playful, clever etc, all generally cool+laid-back+positive. Perhaps I would not have gone with monkey at the outset if I had known this.
Yet the name monkey for monkey1 seems to have ‘stuck’ OK. I don’t think it doomed the language or anything and monkey is sort of a known quantity in the indie game dev scene now as far as I can tell. I even catch the odd monkey t-shirt popping up on facebook now and then (OK, twice)!
Would more people be trying out monkey2 if it had a different name? I guess it’s possible, but I doubt it. What I do know is that rebranding now would be a MAJOR PITA and would throw away any/all goodwill the name ‘monkey’ has built-up over the last several years.
Ok, message clear. MONKEY 2 is the name – and you consider it as a ‘sequel’ of Monkey.
But even translated in italian the word ‘monkey’ has no so many positive sense… it’s just an animal, quite messy etc. I’m trying to find a ‘good sense’ of this word, but still I’ve found any.
Surely the ‘name’ it’s not the first thing you look in the case of a programming language, but in any case has a potential for the diffusion/hype (just compare the name DBase2 and Oracle – nomen omen!)
In any case it’s problably ‘late’ and after so many years since the launch of Monkey it’s a loss of time.I really, really want to move forward, not backwards here, ie: to start attracting coders outside the blitz-bubble
Have you some ideas on this?
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.